Kristine Bull Sletholt, City of Stockholm: who is ready for autonomous mobility?

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the Kurrant at Smart

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City Expo World Congress.

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We're here once again, but this
time we're here with Kristine Bull.

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She is Innovation
Manager at the Traffic

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Office of the City of Stockholm.

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Welcome.

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Thank you.

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We're going to be discussing who
is ready for autonomous mobility.

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And the first thing I'd like to ask
is, you're working on connected,

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cooperative, and automated
mobility in Stockholm.

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What role does the city
ultimately want for

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autonomous vehicles to play
in its transport system?

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we're looking at our long-term
strategies and goals in general.

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We're not thinking that automated
vehicles or the autonomous

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system is something different
from what we want today.

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So in Stockholm, we're working
for a sustainable city,

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but also one that's traffic
efficient and attractive.

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We've been working a lot with
rebuilding and rethinking the city,

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having the streets for
more than just vehicles,

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that the streets are also for
people, people to be and gather

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and have more outdoor serving,
it's a more livable city.

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So I think for us, the
autonomous vehicles and the

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new services that are coming
needs to fit into that system,

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into the transport system
that we have today.

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Okay, perfect.

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And I mean, a lot of attention
around autonomous vehicles

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focuses on the technology itself,
but cities also need to prepare

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their streets, their roads,
regulations, transport systems.

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I mean, there's a lot
of work behind that.

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What are the biggest obstacles
to deploying autonomous

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mobility in a real urban environment,

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and how can municipalities
overcome those challenges?

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As you mentioned, it's really complex
with all these different system

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dimensions coming together when
these autonomous services are coming.

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I think one of the biggest obstacles
are getting— finding these services

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that are actually meeting the goals
that we want, how to make sure

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that they're tailored to the
needs that we have in the cities,

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but also— and also get tools for the
cities to actually make sure that they

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are contributing to that sustainable
and attractive city that we want.

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So it's all these different
things coming together,

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but ultimately it's like,

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how do we actually— how do
you form these services?

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I think hasn't been worked on enough.

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So we need to still
be working on that?

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Yeah, I think, you
know, I'm not thinking

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that much of the
technical parts of it.

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I'm thinking like how to
actually get it into the

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environment that we're
working on, and not just that

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the sensors can handle
the different situations,

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I think that's like coming
anyway, but it's like how

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to make it so it actually
gives value to society.

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Okay.

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And not just one bus,
you know, on one street,

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but actually on the
system level scaled up.

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Okay.

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And so as autonomous
vehicles become more popular,

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or more— I would say popular, but then
I would also say more sophisticated,

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there's a debate about
how much they should

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rely on their own cameras and
sensors versus information

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from connected technology.

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I mean, we've seen autonomous vehicles

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crashing in San
Francisco, for example.

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So I was wondering,
does Stockholm— like,

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how does Stockholm approach that risk?

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Do you want them to just rely on
their technology, or do you want

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to also have technology on the
infrastructure to cope with it?

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I think the baseline is to
rely on their own technology.

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We usually say in Sweden
that intelligence should

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be in the vehicles and
not in the infrastructure.

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So I think for it to function,
it should function itself.

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You know, it should handle the
traffic environment, the physical one,

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but also like the dynamic
environment that cities have.

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But I think, of course, it's
interesting to look into,

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can it be improved
with different kinds

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of data that we could
share to these vehicles?

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I think, you know, for the
safety case itself, you know,

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we shouldn't rely on data
coming from the city.

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It should be some kind
of extra or a bonus.

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Okay.

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Would you say that, yeah,
that then also it would be

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interesting for them to collaborate
and not just focus on one?

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The important thing
is the collaboration?

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Yeah, definitely.

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I think we need a lot of
collaboration in this area as well.

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And like, speaking of
data, like, we want— and are

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interested in getting a
lot of this data as well.

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So of course we need to collaborate.

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Okay.

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And then you've participated,
or Stockholm has participated,

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in initiatives such as
DeployEMDS to improve mobility

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data sharing for connected
and autonomous vehicles.

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What information do cities and
operators as well need to exchange?

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Haven't decided.

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We don't really know exactly
what kind of information

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that we want or need
and what's relevant.

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I think now, like, it's still in
the early stages, I would say.

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So it's still about seeing
what gives us value.

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But we do want to follow up on the
specific, you know, like deployments.

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Are they going according to the plan,
you know, the safety metrics as well,

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which is mainly on the
national level in Sweden.

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But still, it's interesting
for us to follow.

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But also on the system level, it
would be great for us to understand,

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you know, what kind of environment
are these vehicles creating?

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Are they contributing to the
goals or going against it?

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So different kinds
of data such as empty

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miles driven, that's
always interesting.

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But also kilometers generally
driven in the city is interesting.

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Since we do have quite high goals
of reducing driven kilometers.

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So it'd be nice to get even more
data to see how that's going.

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And then we've seen
autonomous shuttles,

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robotaxis tested in
cities around the world,

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but I would say the complicated
part is scaling them.

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The testing is hard, but
scaling them is even harder.

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What lessons has Stockholm learned
from exploring automated mobility?

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And what would a company
need to demonstrate before

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the city supports a large
deployment that scale?

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It's a good question and something
that's always moving as well.

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It's not like it's decided.

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I think first of all, we need
to see that it's contributing

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to the societal goals, that
it's actually creating value.

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And then we're talking
more like the business

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case or like the service
implementation itself.

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On the national level, and
of course for us as well,

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the security aspects,
that they actually can

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handle the situation,
that they've proven that.

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And I'm sure there'll be
some kind of like staircase,

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like moving up from a
few vehicles to more.

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But from the city perspective,
the main thing is societal value,

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but also that they can operate
in the city with rescue and

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assistance and like these more
ambulances, like all the things

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that are happening in the city,
that they're not in the way.

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So companies such as Waymo
are demonstrating advanced

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autonomous driving capabilities,
but what works in one

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city may not work in another
city because obviously,

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for example, San Francisco
isn't the same as Stockholm.

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They're each very different.

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What would it take for a robotaxi
service to operate in Stockholm?

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Is it the same as what you
were mentioning before,

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or do they have to go
through more hoops?

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I think in general, like, Europe is
not the same as the US, you know.

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In a lot of the European
cities, we do have a totally

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different public transport
system that's the backbone

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of how people, you know,
move around in cities.

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And we also have really
good infrastructure

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for walking and biking as well.

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So it needs to fit into that context.

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Specifically about
robotaxis, we would like

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to see the integration
with public transport.

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And that doesn't necessarily mean
being procured by public transport.

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We mean more like the
public-private partnerships, like,

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can we use these vehicles
during certain times to

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complement public transport,
also to strengthen the

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areas of the public transport system
which isn't as efficient today,

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where the buses are running maybe half

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full or not as full as they
should be or not as often.

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Can we use smaller
kinds of vehicles to

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fill these gaps in
the transport systems?

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Because there's great
potential for that,

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and we do have a lot of needs
in the transport systems

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where smaller vehicles
could also play a big part.

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Yeah.

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Now it's my last question.

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If you look at the future,
looking towards 2030,

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which applications of
autonomous mobility do you

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realistically expect to
see operating in Stockholm?

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Because obviously we
know it's not going to be

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flying cars that are
completely autonomous.

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So what is something that
you do expect to see in 2030?

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It's not that far until 2030.

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I think freight is a
really interesting one.

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Maybe not in the urban area, but more

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like the hub-to-hub,
like the motorways.

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I think it's a really interesting
area to look into autonomous trucks.

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I think for the city we do
already have these like smaller

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robots delivering food, so
there's been testing as well.

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But I think more like passenger
transport will be in place as well.

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We'll see like how
big the scale will be,

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but I think it'll be more than
just like a few test vehicles.

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I think it'll be more than
that, hopefully contributing

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to the safe, sustainable,
and attractive city.

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Thank you so much.

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Thank you.